Author Topic: Helio Courier Ailerons  (Read 491 times)

Barry Dechert

Helio Courier Ailerons
« on: October 07, 2022, 09:33:45 AM »
 I had been reading previous post concerning Helio Ailerons. RE: Sep. 2012.  I am about to recover my ailerons the cord mentioned on the trailing edge being of a .14 diameter, this cord is supposed to be installed on all early model Helio's. H391, H295, H250? The cord was never installed on my ailerons when I received the aircraft. Haven't seen the drawing mentioned and curious if there is any information out to be shared on the subject. I have H391B s/n 091.

paullapoint

Re: Helio Courier Ailerons
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2022, 06:13:04 PM »
Mine is about twice that diameter on #028 and about 4" long. I can send you a picture if you pm me with email address or phone number.    Paul

Flathorn

Re: Helio Courier Ailerons
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2022, 04:18:19 AM »
Could you send me a photo also?  Thanks     Byron Miller

yukonranger

Re: Helio Courier Ailerons
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2022, 09:46:24 AM »
I've had my courier almost 20yrs and it never had the cord.  Could you send me the picture too and can anyone describe the difference the cord makes vs not having it?

Thanks

Colton Bontrager

Re: Helio Courier Ailerons
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2022, 02:18:34 PM »
From my understanding the cord was somewhat of an afterthought applied to appease the concerns of test pilot during initial flight testing. The pilot didn't think there was enough control feedback from the ailerons, or something along those lines. Dr. Koppen strategically applied a bit of string and the problem was solved.

Here is an interview with Dr. Koppen where he talks specifically on this subject, as well as the Courier in general: https://youtu.be/GRmLtRVfcGk

Attached are some images that will hopefully answer some of your questions. For A/C 001 thru 049, an 8" section was fixed near the trailing edge. For A/C 050 and on a 51" section was fixed spanning the full length of the trailing edge.

jmetzler

Re: Helio Courier Ailerons
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2022, 03:38:28 PM »
I was about to post similar information, however, I believe Colton has the lengths backwards. 1-49 was 51", 50 and on was 8". We always used 8" for all serial number Helios. Jim Metzler

Colton Bontrager

Re: Helio Courier Ailerons
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2022, 05:47:25 PM »
Yes, Jim you are correct, I listed the lengths backwards. Thank you for pointing that out!

Barry Dechert

Re: Helio Courier Ailerons
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2022, 08:25:53 AM »
Thank you again. And thank you very much for the drawings.

joshuaycrs

Re: Helio Courier Ailerons
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2022, 07:38:28 PM »
From my understanding the cord was somewhat of an afterthought applied to appease the concerns of test pilot during initial flight testing. The pilot didn't think there was enough control feedback from the ailerons, or something along those lines. Dr. Koppen strategically applied a bit of string and the problem was solved.

Here is an interview with Dr. Koppen where he talks specifically on this subject, as well as the Courier in general: https://youtu.be/GRmLtRVfcGk

Attached are some images that will hopefully answer some of your questions. For A/C 001 thru 049, an 8" section was fixed near the trailing edge. For A/C 050 and on a 51" section was fixed spanning the full length of the trailing edge.


From the video of Dr. Koppen himself, he said that the FAA said the controls were "too light" so the string added resistance which created a heavier control force.  I'm not an engineer but it doesn't sound required.

paullapoint

Re: Helio Courier Ailerons
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2022, 06:47:11 PM »
The other thing I noticed in his video, someone asked him about the return spring on the ailerons. He replied, " What springs ?  I didn't put any springs on them".     Paul

Barry Dechert

Re: Helio Courier Ailerons
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2022, 04:48:39 PM »
 I am not sure what to think, but if the engineering drawings are effective then I would comply that's me.
Aileron return springs the only return springs are on the yoke itself and they are in the Aircraft parts manual.
 My question is how much effect does the .14 diameter rope have? I don't know? And there are aircraft out there without and do not seem to have issues.
Cheers everyone good luck play on the safe side. Barry

Kevin Dunn

Re: Helio Courier Ailerons
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2022, 09:41:30 AM »
I've flown Helios with and without the strings. I guess I'm not good enough to be able to tell the difference, because I can't.

Kevin

Louis

Re: Helio Courier Ailerons
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2022, 06:40:41 AM »
Somebody, can't remember who, may be M. Montgomery, told me once that the string under the aileron was there for helping prevent that sort of shimmy we feel when going fast diving.  I sure did feel that shimmy on all helio i flew over 125 k.   The little cord helps to push one of the aileron up so to prevent that shimmy ( flutter? )

That gave Neil the idea of removing the trailer edge aileron trim that protude and catch in the fabric of my ultra lightweight wing cover made out of Silnyl.  We replaced the original protuding tab with an edge under the aileron.

Another story.  Once a friend bought a 250 in California and asked a very good 185 pilot to go pick it up and bring it back to Montreal.  Our runway is 2400 feet with a highway on one side and a road on the other side.  Nothing challenging for most small planes.  But when the 185 pilot made his approach, he was flying the 250 at a speed i had never saw in a Helio.  Once on the ground, he told us:

- Ok, here is your plane, i finally made it, but be very carefull, this plane does strange things at approach speed.   You can feel the aileron loosing their mind.

- What speed did you used ?

- Nothing below 120 k.  Even at that speed, you can feel something strange

This 250 is comfortable at 55 K or even below for approach.   But it was true that when you dive this 250 was fluttering a little more that the other.  Nothing that could be solved by going at a regular speed.  I will look if the cord under the aileron is installed on that 250 next time i go to the hangar

Another mistake this 185 pilot was making is that he would correct with the aileron like three times what was necessary.  Bringing the spoiler a little protuding.  At those speed, it does strage things if you use useless debatment of the control.  He was reproducing what he was use to do with a Cessna

Adjustment of the spoiler ( 1/4 " ?) under the skin of the wing ( can't remember the exact that the manual say ) is important.  Putting them flush to the wing at zero debatment of the aileron makes it feel strange things over 100 k. 

Louis

Going from one plane to another is sometimes tricky.  Last week i went with the Antonov.  It was after three weeks of piloting a 182.  In the 182, you use whaterver debatment you want, whatever brake, whatever everything.  It was designed to be easy to pilot.

In the Antonov, with it's 1000 hp engine, and the really special system of brake, one should be more counscious when passing from a Cessna to the Antonov.  I wasn't.  The brake are air activated.  A kind of rubber bicycle trip around the tire that will inflate and push the brake on a disk.  With high pressure, putting them is quite fast.  On the contrary, removing them is quite slow.  A valve will let the air out, but it is not an immediate affair like if it was hydraulic.  It takes a second or so.  Put a little too much brake, and you are bound with them for half a second or a full second until the releasing valve let the rubber trip empty all it's air.  I goofed.  At take off, before having enough airspeed on the stab, i did put two times some brake to reallign with the runway.  A lot too much brake.  In the half a second it took to remove them, prop hit the runway.  The tail went up.  That was the end. 

Luckily the tail did not slam back to the ground.  We were able to attach somre weight to the prop to have the plane sitting with the tail in the air, and to use a sling to bring it back slowly.  Now we have to do prop strike procedure as per the manual.  New prop, check engine.  A new engine will be more easy.  They are easlily accessible since these antonov were produced over 20000 and are still used in China and Siberia for desserving small villages.  It is a fully supported plane.