Author Topic: 395A Float STC  (Read 18084 times)

Mike

395A Float STC
« on: October 01, 2012, 01:05:38 PM »
Hello all. Purchased H-395A sn 1006 on 3400 floats. The STC for the float conversion from 2870 to 3400 and gross up to 3400# was not present. Anyone know where to purchase a copy.
Thanks,
Mike

Doug Johnson

Re: 395A Float STC
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2012, 06:37:30 PM »
Mike,
Most of the H-395A's have been converted to the GO-480 is your H-395A still powered by the GO-435? What kind of condition is the airplane in?

Can you post a picture of C-FNNB I also notice its been de-registered can you tell me about it.

The float  STC SA731CE is for EDO 582-3430,

STC SA731CE, "Joy Frank",Issued,01/01/1960,"Cape Cod Aeromarine Box 398","Orleans","MA","02653","United States","Installation of Edo 582-3430 floats.","1A8,","ANE-150 Boston Aircraft Certification Office Tel: (781) 238-7151","Alliance Aircraft Group, LLC\H-391B; "

The up-gross to 3300 is SA1467CE
Increase in maximum gross weight from 3,000 lbs. to 3,300 lbs. per Clarence H. Brent Drawings B395-1
1A8 - Alliance Aircraft Group, LLC - H-395 (USAF L-28A or U-10B)

What you probably want is Clarence Brents SA2261CE 3,800lb up-gross you need to contact.

Gordon Cragg
713-502-7274
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 07:39:00 PM by Doug Johnson »
Doug

Bawb

Re: 395A Float STC
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2012, 01:43:31 AM »
That STC does not apply to the 395A.

gearedone

  • Guest
Re: 395A Float STC
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2012, 09:55:59 AM »
The H395A is identical to the H391B and is only approved at 3000 pound gross. The airplanes that have been STC'ed to the GO-480 have been done so on a field approval or 337.

The tubing is still at .040 so you are limited to the 3000 pound figure.

One 395A still has the GO-435 in Canada, only 8 were built

Doug Johnson

Re: 395A Float STC
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2012, 10:02:45 AM »
c/n 515 was the first 395A it apparently took the place of 1001 which was never built

N44298 First Factory 395A, originally ordered as a 395 with a 391 eng and baggage compartment but the new 395A model with an option for larger baggage area was ready for production.

c/n 1006 the one here its mark CF-NNB indicate its the Canadian 395A probably C-FNNB now looks like maybe there will be a 4th 395A flying soon, two in Canada and two in the US.

c/n 1004 CF-AFA is also in Canada

And now that its been pointed out the 395A isn't included in the 3800lb up-gross I guess you're limited to the 3300lb upgross.
 
Below is most of c/n 1008 FAA file.

N4195D, Helio H-395A Courier, construction number 1008

Engine :Lycoming GO-435-C2B2-6


10Jan63 modified, with installation of Landas Model LW3600 fiberglass skis on main gear


08Feb63 Certificate of Airworthiness (Standard - Normal & Restricted, Other - Carriage of


17Oct63 Certificate of Airworthiness (Standard - Normal)


09Jun65 modified, with removal of EDO Model 239 2870 Floats and installation of Airglas Model LJ2800 Floats, for operation in Restricted Category only at 3,180lb.


16Jan74
Certificate of Airworthiness (Restricted - External Load Operations in Alaska), TT3,234.00
The external loads allowed are; a) a boat on the right float support struts; b) a canoe on one or both sides of the float support strut, maximum length 16 feet; c) dimensional lumber on top of the floats or spreader bars, maximum length 18 feet long, one square foot frontal area and 300lb weight; d) Plywood on one or both sides of the float support struts, total maximum dimensions not more than 2 feet wide, 12 feet long, one square foot frontal area and 300lb weight; e) Moose horns on right float and spreader bar on one right float only.

06Jun83 Engine : Lycoming GO-480-G1D6, with Hartzell HC-B3Z20-1 propeller

18Jul87 modified, with removal of EDO Model 249-2870 Floats and installed EDO Model 582-3430 Floats (STC SA1213CE)

23May90 modified, with installation of C. E. Brent kit to increase Gross Weight to 3300 (STC SA1467CE)

The 337's and paperwork is available for 10 bucks for a CD from the FAA.

Doug
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 11:55:42 PM by Doug Johnson »
Doug

Mike

Re: 395A Float STC
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2012, 07:24:57 AM »
Doug,
Thank you for the info. Here is a picture of C-FNNB on Floats.
Since then, I had a hard landing and am replacing an upper wing fitting, engine mount and a couple bent fuselage tubes. Hopefully back in the air next spring.
This machine still has the IO435, fresh top end but not sure how long it will last.
Any possibility of moving to an IO540 on the 395A?
Mike

Doug Johnson

Re: 395A Float STC
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2012, 09:43:03 AM »
Mike,
Stephen says the 395A is identical to the 391B. I don't beleive that is correct. I think that is incorrect because of the fact that the people that converted the 395A's to 395's did it relatively easily. The FAA file on c/n 1005 and 1008 which was converted to a H-395 has no structural modifications. Also when the order for 515 came up it was basically a 391 with the bigger engine the factory didn't back up and build another 391 as c/n 103 they built a 395 c/n 515 instead of 395A c/n 1001, in fact their jigs were probably modified for the 395.

To covert a 391B to a 395 requires the use of Helio mod #48 and a bunch of structural changes. I suspect the 395A is merely considered an engine variant of a 395 just like the H-250 is considered an engine variant of the H-295.

STC SA900WE puts turbosupercharged Lycoming GSO-480-F2D6 engine in H-295
STC SA1936CE puts a TIO-540 in a H-295
STC SA1643CE put an IO-540 in a H-250
STC SA1383SW puts a GO-480 in an H-250

If you are considering an IO-540 instead of the GO-480 you might be able to use one of the above for a field approval
Doug

gearedone

  • Guest
Re: 395A Float STC
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2012, 01:37:11 PM »
Mike,

Doug appears to be the know-it-all on here for some reason. I know for an absolute fact primarily because I've been around Helio for about 50 years, if you have any further questions contact my personal agent, Thank You!!

The H-391B and The H-395A are identical airplanes, except for fuselage tubing that has thinner walls to make it lighter, the H-395A was a continuation of the 391B airframe with the above mentioned.

Transport of Canada does not approve any field approvals or 337's. It has to be a legitimate STC and there no approvals for Helio H-391B or H-395A for engine change to the following powerplants: Lycoming IO-540 or Lycoming GO-480.

The photo below illustrates the first of three Super Courier airframes to be evaluated by the Air Force as L-28A and in 1961 that designation became the U-10A.
The Helio H-395 was type approved in 1958, the H-395A was type approved in late 1959, so in essence the H-395 was in production before the 395A..So let's get this straight and not add to, or avoid more confusion.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 01:54:38 PM by gearedone »

Delcourt Aviation

Re: 395A Float STC
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2012, 05:53:27 PM »
Not only is Doug a know it all, he has better manners.

paullapoint

Re: 395A Float STC
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2012, 06:28:33 PM »
Hi Doug,
    514 was also a 395 with floats? That was one my Dad owned for a while.    I also talked to a 391b owner that said his type cetificates gross is at 3600 lbs.  Is that factory or does it have some STC's to bring it up?   Thanks,  Paul

Doug Johnson

Re: 395A Float STC
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2012, 06:42:35 PM »
Stephen,
You are following up my post as if the the previous question was addressed to yourself.

The reason I answered Mike's question is because the post begins with my name, and If you have drawings of the 395A showing .40 tubing please post them, I wrote down the reason's why I beleive the 395A tubing is the same as the 395 and why I thought you had erred. Its hard to be an expert on something there is only 8 of, or maybe its easier if you own one. Do You or have you ever?

Who is your personal agent I'd like to ask them some questions?

I just received an E-mail from someone with a lot more experience working on Helio's than myself.He says he doesn't know either but doesn't see why they'd be different. He says he'll look around and see if he can find anything, but he doesn't particularly care, if he has to ever work on a 395A he will measure it.

I repeat that Helio c/n 515 a H-395A was a special order in April of '59 for a four Place Helio 391 with a larger baggage compartment and the larger GO-480 engine. The 395 was awarded it's TC Nov 17 ,1958 the 395A was awarded its TC june 29, 1959. The Factory was ready to go into production of the H-395A thus c/n 515 was given it's C0A Apr, '61 as a H-395A, it became the first H-395A and c/n 1001 was never built.

4 395A's were built in 59, 3 in 61 and c/n 1008 was given its CoA JUL, '62.

I freely admit you know twice as much about Helios as I do, you've been around Helios for 50 yrs.

I didn't know that Canada doesn't have a Field approval process, see right there you know more than I do and I lived in Alaska, but I would imagine that through the reciprocity agreements between Canada and the US, Mike could bring his H-395A to the US and legally install a GO-480 if he could convince a DER that prior approval still means something, trying to put an IO-540 inmight be a little harder.

Unlike you I don't remember everything so I have to look things up and I occasionally make errors in transcription or transpose numbers, sometimes I forget to proof read what I just wrote and it sounds like it came from a moron, I am getting better about that.

With your help I may get to be a knowledgeable as yourself.

I thought maybe you had a IA certificate or something because you are so sure of yourself but I ran a FAA search didn't find your name, or Helio West inc

I didn't get around Helio's until 1974 when I moved to Alaska and I beleive there are more Helio's in Alaska than MI. I didn't buy one until 1994. It was an H-295 that I took 6 weeks with the help of Larry Montgomery and two mechanics an IA and a AP to put together then I ferried it to Alaska Where I put another 1000 hrs working on it. I only Have about 500 hrs flying and working the Helio, 1500 in Cessna's all trigears and if you care to include it 2000 hrs in Ultralights.

I'm not the most knowledgeable person about Helio's but I have done enough research on Helios and have enough experience to converse intelligently without bullshitting you or anyone else.

Thanks David, after writing this post I'm not sure about better manners. But I do know the definitions and proper usage of all of the words I do post.

Doug
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 10:02:56 AM by Doug Johnson »
Doug

Doug Johnson

Re: 395A Float STC
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2012, 07:08:11 PM »
Paul,
I only find the three STC's for an up-gross one on the 391 to bring from 3000 up to 3300 one on the 295/395 after c/n 541 and up to raise it from 3400 to 3800 and the one on Au-24 to raise it from 5100 to 5800.

edit seperate STC's for 295 and 395 and none for the 250 so their are four

I think I remember a 3600 up-gross on the 395 for a particular model and size float, but I don't remember. I have never had much to do with floats for some reason. Which means I sometimes don't pay as much attention as I should.

Seriously send a personal message to Stephen and see if he knows of something, I beleive I remember him saying that some of his first Helio experience was with a float plane dealer.

Doug
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 10:10:44 AM by Doug Johnson »
Doug

gearedone

  • Guest
Re: 395A Float STC
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2012, 07:40:14 AM »
Okay, my apologies for not being specific here and being a bit funny, there was no intention to act like I was trying to be only knowledgeable Helio nut.

Try to read through some of the posts here and laugh a bit...that was my intention. No harm intended.

Here is what I know. All H395 production up until #555 was at 3000 pounds. After that Clarence Brent went to thicker tubing and added the servo tab for the stabilator to bring that up to 3200 pounds for the military (U-10B) those airplanes are the ones that can be upgraded to 3800 pounds. The H395A is listed in Jane's All the World's Aircraft 1959-60 edition. It is exactly the same as the 391B performance wise, after further investigation all weights, placard airspeed markings are identical to the 391. Where Helio Aircraft got the notion to produce the 395A, it was short-lived, as only 8 were built as far as I can tell.

Helio 391B N4100D was the only float equipped Helio I ever dealt with, at that time it belonged to Charlie Helin in Detroit, and that was in 1963-64 time-frame and where I saw it, it was on wheels, not floats. I have no float experience. The STC business is far from exact, as it is constantly changing. What were once field approvals and 337's are no longer valid in the lower 48 according to recent changes in the FAA.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 07:55:39 AM by gearedone »

gearedone

  • Guest
Re: 395A Float STC
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2012, 09:22:14 AM »
I would like to add that I sincerely applaud all the efforts Doug has contributed to the website concerning all the Helio data regarding manufacturing, model history, and other such historical information. He has done a fabulous job in this capacity. While so much information is collected via the internet, not all of it is factual. So presenting FAA records here may be a bit of an elephant as far as true production status and record facilitation.

I come from a time where Helio was in better financial health. During the early to late 60's there was a serious market for the airplane, and it was being printed everywhere in all aviation publications. Helio Aircraft Co. was headquartered in Bedford, MA. I visited there on several occasions. That being said, as of 1968 I was headed for the draft and the Vietnam War. I was a commercial rated pilot with 200 hours of flying time, 50 hours of which were accumulated in the H250 N5460E owned by Great Lakes Helio. I was sure I would have a crack at doing something regarding a position with Helio Aircraft from a dealer stand-point. That did not happen. I formed and incorporated Helio West Inc. to revive Helio Aircraft in May of 1980. Alvin Goldhush still had possession of the aircraft type certificates, and there was word of another entity expressing revival of the airplane. That entity became Helio Aircraft LTD. and James Cox was hired to oversee production of the Helio 800. We can see where that lasted.

In 1987 we visited Adams Affiliates in Tulsa to negotiate a re-start of Helio with emphasis being placed on parts production. I personally spoke with Clarence Brent in Pittsburgh, KS and it was of his opinion to place the original 1400 series 295 back on the palette. He would oversee DER as far as parts production was concerned. I had a factory floor plan all set up for that, and all employees at Mid-States would be back to work. I went through the entire facilty to see what was ahead of me. Most 800 airplanes that had yet to be finished and signed off were still there. In November of 1986 we negotiated a sale of HT-295 for my attorney and was flown to Kalamazoo, MI by Larmont Aviation, the airplane was identical to N68883 only in a tri-gear 1700 series airplane. Can't remember the "N" number, maybe someone can find it.

In October of 1987 the stock market crashed and all hopes of Helio Aircraft vanished. And now here is where I am.

Stephen

Doug Johnson

Re: 395A Float STC
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2012, 01:45:32 PM »
Steven,
Are we going to be cordial now? You realize that if you and I don't argue back and forth that there won't be as much informaion posted. Also you should avoid attempts at humor in our posts because neither of us are very good at it.

Your ref to U-10b's leads me to believe that Clarence came up with the heavier tubing for the military upgrade of c/n 547-560 to U-10B's surprisingly there is nothing in the type certificate about this upgrade.

I beleive your c/n of 555 comes from the 3800lb STC's 556 and up, not that it matters much because because by '87 the time of the STC, c/n 547 thru 555 were no longer around. Also this a kind of confusing period because the first factory built U-10B was c/n 572.

Military records show 547-560 being built with U-10A configuration and 12 months after being accepted by the USAF physically upgraded to U-10B configuration. I thought this was just the Heavy duty flaps, heavy duty stabilator? But apparently not.

By the way do you know when the Long range 120 gal tanks were introduced? I have this as beginning with the first factory built U-10B which would be c/n 572, for longer range/endurance.

I beleive now that 561 was when the heavier tubing was introduced at the factory, and it wasn't all the tubing I was told by Larry M. or one of those guys that it was the vertical diagonals in the sides and a few other places. I thought this was on all 395's but now the 3800lb up-gross STC makes sense. I think I learned something here.

I've never been quite sure when this happened but but if you are sure it was the beginning of the U-10B this would kind of nail it down, I also have the servo (or is it antiservo ?) being introduced with the heavy duty stabilator on 560.

Doug
Doug