Author Topic: c/n H-22, N400HE  (Read 4942 times)

Doug Johnson

c/n H-22, N400HE
« on: August 04, 2015, 03:41:01 PM »
11 picture check your albums. Please do an internet search maybe you'll come up with one I couldn't find, I need all the help I can get.

Previous posts about N400HE or anything click on   http://flyhelio.com/smf/index.php?action=search   Enter ?
 
c/n H-22, build number/ serial number assigned by Factory to fuselage/crash-cage of uncompleted Helio model H-800 (SP) sold as parts 12/84, nearly complete Helio purchased by Tom Teufel OR, reg as N4406N 11/90, re-registered as N392H (for proposed new Strato-Courier model H-392) s/n IH-2 in '91 taken to C.H. Jurgens (Interport/Helio Ltd) FL placed in experimental research and development category completed in 01/94 with Lycoming 360 hp IGSO-480-A2A6, with Hartzell HC-B3Z20 10151-5 propeller as experimental (model H-392 s/n IH-2) sold '97, to Helio Enterprises inc WA (David Maytag #1 Helio LLC, Partner) reregistered N666X s/n H-22 model H-800 installed a Czech Walter M-601D-8 turboprop engine 650 shp continuous with Avia-Hamilton Standard VJ8-508D 4 blade propeller as a (model XC-400T) next installed (a Walters M-601E) accident the airplane sustained a hard landing on final approach after the propeller went into an uncommanded reverse pitch range. This was the first flight with this engine. After several successful normal approaches and landings flown at 70 knots, the pilot decided to make a more aggressive STOL (short takeoff and landing) approach. This would require him to fly about 60 knots and required more precise power control. Shortly after turning from the base leg to final, the propeller went uncommanded into the beta (reverse pitch) range. At an altitude of 150 feet he didn't think he could lower the nose and attain the 70 knots airspeed he needed to flare normally. He elected to maintain his three-point attitude and tried to slightly increase power to get the propeller to come out of beta. Normally, beta is obtained by depressing a thumb lever that lifts a pin, allowing the control lever to be moved into the beta range. He detected no response so he continued to slowly advance the power. The airplane touched down at approximately 1,000-feet-per-minute rate of descent. The Federal Aviation Administration accident coordinator examined the airplane, engine, and documentation. Everything appeared to be in order. @ Prescott AZ 2/99, re-reg (N140FM ntu) rename '99, re-registered N666X Alliance Aircraft Group AZ rename '00, re-registered N400HE Helio Enterprises inc AZ '01 installed Russian OKB M-14PF radial eng with MT MTV-9-B-C-R(M) four blade propeller as radial engine experimental for European Market survey sold as parts '04, to Pima AZ sheriffs Dept, placed in Experimental Public Service category, reconfigured as a Turboprop with 420 hp continuous Allison (250-B17C) eng and the 2nd H-7/800 Helio to be reconfigured using optional tricycle gear feature becoming a turboprop  H/T-850, prompted by pilot insurance problems, removed from service 11/14, camera equip removed sceduled to be replaced, with Solloy Cessna 207 (STC'ed for Turboprop) sold 04/15, Bob Wallace, Plymouth MA placed in experimental exhibition category, A/C placed on amphibious floats at Twitchell's in Maine
 
     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CUun_14xsw&list=PLVuCiVfn3MhVK3bstULzAvgfHVe7wSaKd








The picture below is most recent but experimental mark not on display yet.




« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 01:18:27 PM by Doug Johnson »
Doug

Doug Johnson

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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2015, 03:48:57 PM »
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Doug

Doug Johnson

Re: c/n H-22, N400HE
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2015, 04:34:53 AM »
email about H-22 from current owner that came with last photo I hope he doesn't mind I didn't ask for permission to share this.

If you do Bob I will remove it.

Doug,
Here's a photo of the wing tip on H-22.   Of course, everything is Experimental on this airplane.  Things are going very well though.  Very stable, solid airplane, well maintained by Pima County Sherrif's Department.

The biggest challenge is learning how to get it slow and it is amazing.  Sometimes I am landing and I swear I could run beside the airplane before it touches down. 

I am also learning why the Sherrif's department shifted this H-22 from the Taildragger configuration (the mains were 295 gear legs) to the tri-gear.  Many think this is blasphemy....   but the reality is that the turbine only weighs 204 pounds.  While it is way out front on the mount to get the CG correct, the fact is that there is not enough weight to get the gear legs and shocks to work in the normal manner.   With this light weight engine I am finding that the slow speed characteristics are much better than what people have been saying about the standard H800.  So far - so good.  It is a sweet airplane. 

Bob Wallace
Doug

Louis

Re: c/n H-22, N400HE
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2015, 05:06:17 AM »
This magnificient Turbine Helio is not a 800.  A 800 is an Helio with so much weight in front that the stab must have 85 milles per hour air on it to be able to have a normal angle of attack.

All the 1A8 Helio have the same wing, same stab.  They all fly the same once you put the same total weight.... and you do put it to have the CG at the same place.

Well, almost.  The three blades prop does do a brake.  So you have to keep a little power to have the same as a two blade.

Problem with the 800 is just you won't be able to put the CG at the same place, keeping the total weight at the same level.  The big 720 is just too heavy and too far in front.  I am sure this turbine configuration bring this Helio in the 391 class, with some super power.

It's not either a Stalion.  I never understand that you could double the wing loadind and still be able to fly slow.  Even with a bigger, far away stab.  A 185 have the same wing as a 170.  But it does fly very differently in a way i really don't like

i do believe in this turbine Helio.  I see nothing to complain about.... and usually, i love to complain

Louis

JamesCaird

Re: c/n H-22, N400HE
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2015, 11:58:48 PM »
Thankyou, Louis- I agree this is not an H800 and a pleasant surprise.  The current program with H-22 is to look into the practicality and economics of the turbine with this airplane.  As you might expect performance is great in takeoff due to the acceleration provided.  I had flown Henry Kendall's U-10D many years ago and more recently Alan Sikes U10 which had been factory converted to trigear.  Both with GO-480's.  For those two, Slow speed handling and approaches were as expected with approaches in the 50's slowing down into 40's for landing.  Slowspeed flights at altitude with everything out, flaps and slats down in the low 30's.
Meanwhile H-22 will slowflight at altitude down in the low 30's. (The airspeed indicator drops to "0" below 31 kts.  indicated.) I am slowing landings down into the low 40's while experimenting to see how much energy is left for the flare. I will keep you posted.   Note however that H-22 is not fast.  My sense is that (referring to my photo from forward which Doug posted above) there is significant drag added forward with gear legs, lights, oil cooler, etc.  While in service with Pima County, Arizona, it additionally had an 80# 12" + camera mount under right wing.  They seldom went very far with it but carried out many many long endurance  missions overhead Tucson at 70-80 kts at 7000ft so it was not intended to go fast.  They were not really using its short field capability but rather endurance and slow flight as an alternative to helicopter ops.  H-22 was operating at about 1/4 the cost of the Helicopter so the turbine was not a big deal.  They had Bell 206, now Twinstar (eurocopter) and the Helios have been replaced with Soloy 206's but the Helio showed the way.    Back here now We have a TFR going on over (President at Marthas Vineyard)
and the Secret Service doesn't want me lingering so I won't get much flying in these next few weeks but hope to weigh the H-22.  Thanks for your interest/Bob Wallace






Doug Johnson

Re: c/n H-22, N400HE
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2016, 07:21:16 AM »
updated History paragraph

anyone know if H-22 has the H-295 stabilator or the larger one designed for the H-800

I also posted a copy of the photo on Johns refrigerator here temporarily.

If Bob ever sends me a photo I will replace it.
Doug

gearedone

  • Guest
Re: c/n H-22, N400HE
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2016, 12:40:16 PM »
Well kids, hate to inform you but N400HE, is indeed a Helio 800. Maytag built that up from the existing tooling left over when they bought the type certificates in 1994 it was an unfinished airframe and then Maytag installed the M-14P radial, then Rick Pearson came up from Tucson to look it over and the Pima County Sheriff's bought it and the installation of the Allison was worked up and welded using the drawings from the GAF Nomad twin-turbine N.24.

There was never any thought to install the Lycoming IO-720-A1A and the airplane was never signed off by the FAA

The stab on the 295 and 800 are very similar except for the travel in the up position which is 10 degrees less that the 295, and that issue was completed by James Cox at Helio Aircraft LTD. back in 1982 during certification.
We can take this argument as far as want to go.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 12:57:17 PM by gearedone »

Doug Johnson

Re: c/n H-22, N400HE
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2016, 03:02:04 PM »
Stephen,
Where did you get the idea that anyone thinks H-22 is a H-295, the FAA file clearly states it was an incomplete H-800 fuselage that was designed to use either the backwards tricycle gear or standard tricycle gear. It has the 4000lb gross on takeoff 3800lb landing and the stainless carry through spar of the H-800.

It was completed as a Model H-392 then went through several conversions, but is now a standard tricycle gear turboprop courier since it was a new model H-800 I assume it would now be a H/T-850 or 840 (double the Horsepowerfor to get model #).  As stated by Bob without the weight of the 720hp lycoming the shock struts didn't work properly. According to the Pima sheriffs dept the were going through a lot of tires one of the main reasons for going to standard tricycle gear, I also heard it takes off shorter with the standard tricycle gear.

And the spec sheets for the H-391 through H-295 show a 13'4" tail span

the spec sheets for the H-7/800 show a tail span of 15' probably to make up for the decreased travel.

At least one of the H-800 owners measured the tail at 15' in an earlier post.

Another owner of an H-800 measured his A/C's tail at 13'4". Was it replaced with an H-295 tail? No one seems to know.

I asked if anyone knew if H-22 had the 13'4" tail or the 15" tail because it has went through several configurations.

I was also curious earlier if it needed a ventral fin for directional stability as was placed on C-GZZL with amphibs.

Apparently not the dorsal fin must give enough vertical surface that its not needed.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 04:28:26 AM by Doug Johnson »
Doug

gearedone

  • Guest
Re: c/n H-22, N400HE
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2016, 03:29:55 PM »
Read Louis's post above. It was never built as a 392 either, the idea was explored and never went any further that that. 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 03:36:05 PM by gearedone »

Doug Johnson

Re: c/n H-22, N400HE
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2016, 04:45:19 PM »
Read the the History paragraph at the very beginning of this post, it was completed and flown as an experimental H-392.

 From FAA files Helio model H-800 (SP) cage s/n H-22 sold as parts 12/84, nearly complete Helio (except for engine) purchased by Tom Teufel OR, reg as N4406N 11/90, re-registered as N392H (for proposed new Strato-Courier model H-392) s/n IH-2 in '91 taken to C.H. Jurgens (Interport/Helio Ltd) FL who placed it in experimental research and development category completed in 01/94 with Lycoming 360 hp IGSO-480-A2A6, with Hartzell HC-B3Z20 10151-5 propeller as experimental (model H-392 s/n IH-2) sold '97, to Helio Enterprises inc WA (David Maytag).

Stephen, I would post the FAA PDF files but they are too large to post. There is a site limit to how large of a PDF file you can post (2000K I think). I don't have the software to break a large PDF file into parts small enough to post here. But if you want you can buy the FAA CD for ten bucks and read the information for yourself.

They are also read only PDF files this makes things difficult also to convert them to editable files You have to Use OCR software to covert to files you can copy information from with the old highlight and copy procedure, this makes it tedious to copy information one character at a time by typing everything out.

So I understand the fact you don't have all the information.

Just checked the airworthiness file for H-22 is 8562 kb.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 05:23:13 PM by Doug Johnson »
Doug

JamesCaird

Re: c/n H-22, N400HE
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2016, 10:15:36 PM »
Jeez- You guys are quick. That latest photo if from Friday, September 9.   I have been away in NZ chasing whales (Also got to fly with Don Anderson in his H250).  Just got home a couple of weeks ago while the Helio (H-22) was getting fitted with the amphibs.   Only got in it myself last Friday up in Greenville , Maine, for Annual Seaplane Pilots Association Fly-in.  Somebody sent you a photo before I could.   Have new weight and balance and will measure the Horiz. Stabilizer when I get it back.  I think it is 13'5 ft, not 15 ft.   Only made half a dozen landings on water, mostly light wind, and all seems fine so far but the floats sure take some of the Helio out of the Helio.  Doesn't slow it down much in cruise and landings can still be down to 40 (I didn't try slower yet) but you sure feel the weight and drag getting it off the water. 
    A Helio and maybe this one in particular sure draws a crowd. Current and former Hello pilots come out of the woodwork. It's a real treat.  When a former Hello driver introduces himself I ask him to climb up in the left seat and try it out-then the stories start coming. One of the guys started telling me about training Airforce  guys to fly the Helio and then they were sheep-dipped and sent to Laos.  Also heard parts of the story about the "clean" Helio sent inside the USSR back in The Day.   I should be recording all this.
More later/  Cheers/ Bob Wallace

Doug Johnson

Re: c/n H-22, N400HE
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2016, 01:14:05 PM »
added 3 more pics and opened above
Doug

Doug Johnson 1

Re: c/n H-22, N400HE
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2017, 06:47:04 AM »
I found a couple pictures of N400HE a sunset picture or maybe a sunrise picture of it as model H-840T and the other as it is on Floats. I guess it is now a model H/T-840T (SP) for seaplane.

Bob, I was glancing through the other pictures I noticed the Landing/Taxi lts on the nose strut and didn't see any on the seaplane pictures.

I was wondering if you intend to install retractable landing/taxi lts in the wings similar to what was installed on H-5?

Those on H-5 were recently field approved.






« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 06:52:03 AM by Doug Johnson 1 »

Louis

Re: c/n H-22, N400HE
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2017, 04:58:08 AM »
Those photos of the incredible N400HE made me reread the post.  And it's part on the stab size of the 800 that can be 15', or standard 13.5.

This discussion about the stab size of the 800 haunt me since i saw the spec of the 15' in the book about Helio.  But i never saw this spec anywhere else.  And it isn't in the type certificate of the variant 800.  All the other change for the 800 are listed in the type certificate, well, sort of, but not the size of the stab.

It haunt me because i flew a 800 for 15 years.  More than 4000 hours.  And each landing was a challenge.  The 800 was unstable below 80 without flaps.  I was finding that normal since i had no experience on other models of Helio.  But discovered that my 800 was a $#?&*@ aircraft to fly when i tried a 295 after all those years with the 800.

Later, on this website, one confirmed that he have a 15' stab on his 800.  I can confirm that three 800 had 13.5 feet stab.  I am sure that the 15 feet stab would have make my 800 more flyable. 

About this subject, i want to speculate.  I just remembered a conversation with Larry Montgomery.  Well, part of it.  He did arrange the buying of my 800.  The 800 was in the West.  He arranged everything by phone, and we went for a rendez-vous to check the plane around Seattle, if i remember.  The plane was in a field, owned by some guy that was living in some fields with bull.  Living in huge Winnebagos.  He was selling semens of big bulls.  Each little bottle worth a lot.  Being from the city, i was quite amazed to see the procedure to pickup the nectar from the Bull.  I could understand that going trough that, you would want a lot of money for it.

After we arrived on the field, Larry went to check the 800.  He was not happy with the aileron lock.  Was surprised and please about some rubber tubing that prevented the slat from banging.  Then he went for the stab.  Look at it.  He the told me some stories that i remember in parts.  I was so impressed with the hugeness of the plane.  With my pockets full of the 100K the guy was asking for.

- You see this stab, louis.  One can fly with half of it.   I did it once

Speaking french, english was difficult for me to pickup.  I could barely understand why the recommendation of flying with half of the stab. 

- You see that big motor ?  FAA did not want to approve the CG.  Even after flying testing it. 

Larry spoke a lot more, but this is what i remember.

Now the speculation.

Certification of a variant of a model are easy if you don't change too much.  Like a new motor.  If you don't change other thing, you just need to recerticate the change.  Not go on the complete certification program.  Changing the stab size may have trigger a no-go for the FAA.  So maybe Helio were refused to add the 800 to the type certificate with the 15 stab, but it was ok with the 13.5 of the standard airframe.

Just a speculation.  Larry did mention also that he was present at the flight test with the FAA.  I don't remember if he said it was him who flew it. 

I bought the plane.  Larry took the command, and he flew me in it home.  Back home, he went to check me on it.  Then my 15 years of adventure with the 800 started.  From Alaska, to the caribbean, up to Iceland.

Louis

From wikipedia
Changes to type certificate[edit]
Often the basic design is enhanced further by the type certificate holder. Major changes beyond the authority of the service bulletins require amendments to the type certificate. For example, increasing (or decreasing) an aircraft's flight performance, range and load carrying capacity by altering its systems, fuselage, wings or engines resulting in a new variant may require re-certification. Again the basic process of type certifications is repeated (including maintenance programs). However, unaltered items from the basic design need not be retested. Normally, one or two of the original prototype fleet are remanufactured to the new proposed design. As long as the new design does not deviate too much from the original, static airframes do not need to be built. The resultant new prototypes are again subjected to flight tests.

Upon successful completion of the certification program, the original type certificate is amended to include the new variant (normally denoted by a new model number additional to the original type designation).

« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 05:02:35 AM by Louis »

Doug Johnson 1

Re: c/n H-22, N400HE
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2017, 07:39:30 AM »
Louis. that's an interesting Picture, I've heard that they give the bull an electric shock to make them give up the stuff, If so I wonder how they get them to mount the fake cow a second time.

I also reread the history paragraph at the top and saw that I'd made an omission on this part "installed Russian OKB M-14PF radial eng with MT MTV-9-B-C-R(M) four blade propeller as radial engine experimental for European Market"

I didn't give a horsepower rating or number of cylinders so I looked it up it was a 400 hp 9 cylinder radial I guess that would make it a model H-800R, I didn't see what it weighed but it couldn't be more than the 8 cylinder radial, I was reading a blog that said it was also often used in Russia for standby power generation units and that they sometimes run for 20 thousand hours and will even run on 80 octane fuel. I thought that was probably a shortening of "80/87 fuel" but I looked it up and found that in Russia they still sell a low 80 octane fuel with lead for use in older equipment without hardened valve seats. I knew that in the US they used to have what was called tractor fuel that was a low octane gasoline and if you put it in a car it would run roughly while hot but wouldn't start if the engine was cold. I couldn't figure out if it was the same fuel.

I have never heard how well this modification worked but an engine that can run up to 20 thousand hrs can't be 'all bad' even if they do look kind of ugly.