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General Category => General Helio Discussion => Topic started by: c/stolaircraft on April 01, 2010, 12:02:37 PM

Title: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 01, 2010, 12:02:37 PM
What would a helio turbine courier take off and landing performance compare to stock super cub when at gross weight ??
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: mrhelio on April 02, 2010, 07:26:21 AM
According to my sources, the following applies: The Pima County Sheriff's Helio Turbine Courier @ 3888 # was airborne in 150 feet on a 105 degree day at Tucson's elevation, factor in the density altitude and you have a serious short field airplane. The gross for this Helio is at 4200 pounds, I'm told.. and that's in the "experimental" category. If these were in production with the RR/Allison C-250 (420 HP) you could very well account for 90-125 feet at lower elevations in cooler conditions. An H-295 1400 series with this mod would have twice the rate of climb compared to the Super Cub. The Cub could probably match the take-off numbers, but you do not have useful load or minimum turn radius. The current fleet of 2 Helio turbines equals all the helicopters now flying in time on station, fuel burn, efficiency, and reliability. Acquisition costs would be substantially higher of course, but compare this to a MD-500. Cruise at 12,500 feet dials in at 145- 155 KTAS with power and torque around 350-370 HP..
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 02, 2010, 10:49:46 AM
Is there any thing you can't do in an experimental aircraft that can do in part 23 or other similar FAA certified aircraft? Don't on anything on this side of aviation yet, 14 yrs old and learning though.
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: mrhelio on April 02, 2010, 10:55:58 AM
There is always the STC route, but quite costly and time consuming!
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 02, 2010, 10:57:50 AM
According to my sources, the following applies: The Pima County Sheriff's Helio Turbine Courier @ 3888 # was airborne in 150 feet on a 105 degree day at Tucson's elevation, factor in the density altitude and you have a serious short field airplane. The gross for this Helio is at 4200 pounds, I'm told.. and that's in the "experimental" category. If these were in production with the RR/Allison C-250 (420 HP) you could very well account for 90-125 feet at lower elevations in cooler conditions. An H-295 1400 series with this mod would have twice the rate of climb compared to the Super Cub. The Cub could probably match the take-off numbers, but you do not have useful load or minimum turn radius. The current fleet of 2 Helio turbines equals all the helicopters now flying in time on station, fuel burn, efficiency, and reliability. Acquisition costs would be substantially higher of course, but compare this to a MD-500. Cruise at 12,500 feet dials in at 145- 155 KTAS with power and torque around 350-370 HP..
What is the empty weight on pima county sheriffs turbine courier? The tricycle gear on that courier,what kind of abuse can that take? off airport, ect.
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 02, 2010, 10:59:20 AM
There is always the STC route, but quite costly and time consuming!
What is STC route? I'am a dummy on this side of things.
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: Au Miner on April 03, 2010, 12:30:06 AM
Howdy Cstol,

only 14 years old?  Awesome to have that interest in aviation, and to ask questions like this.  I was doing the same when I was your age, but that was 14 years ago, and the internet didn't offer the resources it does now. 
The STC route that Mr. Helio was talking about is a Supplemental Type Certificate.  This is where someone comes up with a modification to a certificated aircraft, and then does the necessary engineering, testing and paperwork and gets an approval from the FAA for the modification.  They can then usually use the STC on other examples of the approved model of aircraft (or sell the stc to other owners who want to do the same modification).  It is a LOT of work to do, but it greatly simplifies the approval process for subsequent applications of the same modification.

Bill
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: mrhelio on April 03, 2010, 09:05:37 AM
I was fairly knowledgeable at 14, but then when I started flying it took on a whole new perspective. Good that you ask now. The empty weight on the Helio 800 N400HE I'm not sure of, when they first got it, it was disassembled and the turbine was installed. For numbers here is what you have, The H-800 is typically 2700 pounds empty with the Lycoming IO-720 (400 HP) and the weight of the engine around 470 pounds. The RR/Allison is a mere 220 pounds or so, you just knocked off a lot of weight up front. We now have 420 HP with half the weight. Originally it was tail wheel and almost too light with all the torque and power up front. The decision to convert to tri-gear was an economic move, easier to check out pilots versus cost of operations. The installation of the turbine was borrowed form the GAF N-24 Nomad built in Australia. The other one N613SD has the same set up. Early in the test flight phase the H800 ate tires up to the amount of 4-5 per week, too costly, so this was the other factor in making the decision to go tri-gear. N400HE also has air conditioning..

(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr321/litburner/helio800beast.jpg)
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: mrhelio on April 03, 2010, 09:27:09 AM
Here is the current Helio H-800 after flight testing, it is also equipped with air conditioning and a Glass Panel

(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr321/litburner/flightday006.jpg)
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 03, 2010, 08:27:43 PM
Howdy Cstol,

only 14 years old?  Awesome to have that interest in aviation, and to ask questions like this.  I was doing the same when I was your age, but that was 14 years ago, and the internet didn't offer the resources it does now. 
The STC route that Mr. Helio was talking about is a Supplemental Type Certificate.  This is where someone comes up with a modification to a certificated aircraft, and then does the necessary engineering, testing and paperwork and gets an approval from the FAA for the modification.  They can then usually use the STC on other examples of the approved model of aircraft (or sell the stc to other owners who want to do the same modification).  It is a LOT of work to do, but it greatly simplifies the approval process for subsequent applications of the same modification.

Bill
Thanks It looks like I'll learn a lot here. So a helio turbine courier if done right would be a STC. When did you start flight training? And what plane did you start in?  I've thought about starting this summer when I turn 15 and go slow so I'll have lots of hours in when I go to take to take the check flight, so I'll have every thing right...hopefully.  :P
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 03, 2010, 08:35:34 PM
I was fairly knowledgeable at 14, but then when I started flying it took on a whole new perspective. Good that you ask now. The empty weight on the Helio 800 N400HE I'm not sure of, when they first got it, it was disassembled and the turbine was installed. For numbers here is what you have, The H-800 is typically 2700 pounds empty with the Lycoming IO-720 (400 HP) and the weight of the engine around 470 pounds. The RR/Allison is a mere 220 pounds or so, you just knocked off a lot of weight up front. We now have 420 HP with half the weight. Originally it was tail wheel and almost too light with all the torque and power up front. The decision to convert to tri-gear was an economic move, easier to check out pilots versus cost of operations. The installation of the turbine was borrowed form the GAF N-24 Nomad built in Australia. The other one N613SD has the same set up. Early in the test flight phase the H800 ate tires up to the amount of 4-5 per week, too costly, so this was the other factor in making the decision to go tri-gear. N400HE also has air conditioning..

(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr321/litburner/helio800beast.jpg)
What made it eat the tires? And what do you mean by to light? the nose light and a very heavy tail and a messed up CG.
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 03, 2010, 08:39:56 PM
Here is the current Helio H-800 after flight testing, it is also equipped with air conditioning and a Glass Panel

(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr321/litburner/flightday006.jpg)
They took off the useless wing ( weights) tips. Did they modify the wing in any other way?
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 03, 2010, 08:45:11 PM
I have seen a H-391 with a turbo prop ( I think it was 450hp allison). Does any body know any thing about this Helio. It was in Brazil.

Cstol
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: mrhelio on April 04, 2010, 08:24:32 AM
Not a 391B, but rather a U-10B (H395) converted back in the 80's, it went to South America, but is now back in the U.S and was upgraded to the Allison B-17F (450)..It will rotate and fly almost instantly 50-90 feet. Rate of climb close to 3000 FPM, but you have limited range and the fuel burn @ 320 HP is about 40 GPH

http://www.buckens.com/Helio/index.html
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 04, 2010, 02:26:28 PM
couldn't you back down from 320hp to about 260hp or so and still get the speed of the GO-480?
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: mrhelio on April 04, 2010, 03:38:41 PM
At anything above 10,000 feet 310 HP will be the magic number, less than that you the inefficiency of the smaller compressor in the Allison B-17F. They claim 19.5 GPH @ 310 HP figure that should give you 5 hours endurance!!

Here is a comparison data for the Silver Eagle

http://www.propjetaviation.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: mrhelio on April 04, 2010, 03:56:48 PM
JAARS Helio N60JA @ Hickory, NC not a full blown short field take-off by any means but you get the idea!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRDunr0OGqI
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 04, 2010, 08:55:30 PM
What is the service ceiling on the H-395 with the B-17F?

Do you know anything on the H-500 twin courier? It seams that I can't get any info on it.
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: mrhelio on April 05, 2010, 08:22:07 AM
Service ceiling is 25,000 feet, more if you are light

There are no H500 twins, but someone is reported to have parts of one. Only seven built for the CIA, 6 went to India and from there to China back in 1960. They were built for one way missions into Soviet Union. The military designation was U-5, U-5A/B

(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr321/litburner/h500twin.jpg)
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 05, 2010, 02:16:03 PM
Thinks for the h-500 info.

Was there any other modifications to the h-392 strato courier other than the GSO-480? 
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: mrhelio on April 05, 2010, 03:26:46 PM
No, other than the installation of the GSO-480, only one was built and never put into production, that airplane set the World altitude record in 1957 @ 31, 200 feet over Mexico City..
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 05, 2010, 08:40:55 PM
What airframe was that on?
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: mrhelio on April 06, 2010, 09:07:57 AM
H-391B, meant to be a high altitude photographic version..
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 06, 2010, 10:41:25 AM
This is a bit off topic. Why can't I view the gallery? And do You know where the closest place to MO. that I could train in Helio? And the apox. cost per hour it would run?

C/stol
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: mrhelio on April 06, 2010, 12:41:03 PM
Apparently the photo gallery has not been initiated as of yet, I have the same issues. As I mentioned earlier, Samuel Stainton is the only source I know of that can give you what you need for flight training, he is in Colorado.. I don't think he is current in his own airplane at the moment, but if you had an airplane we could do that fairly soon. I'm thinking because of your age that will be awhile off yet. For a complex airplane that the Helio is, figure on 150 hours for insurance purposes and to be good at it, if I find more resources I will let you know..
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 06, 2010, 06:36:45 PM
Mrhelio are you also poweroflift on supercub.org? You kind of sound like him.
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: mrhelio on April 06, 2010, 06:39:36 PM
I am indeed!!
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 06, 2010, 06:52:05 PM
Well I get more info here! I was talking about Mrhelio in post on supercub.org when I said there is good info on flyhelio.com!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 06, 2010, 06:58:38 PM
My name gives me away, I am sure.  Guess I am just wasting time telling you.
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 07, 2010, 02:30:45 PM
Do you know any thing about JAARS training program ??
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: mrhelio on April 07, 2010, 02:33:57 PM
Forget it my friend, they will not perform outside flight training unless you are certified pilot and a member or volunteer of the organization!! Sorry to say!!
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 07, 2010, 02:38:25 PM
Oh well. They got an interesting program going. Have you read any of their stories?
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: mrhelio on April 07, 2010, 03:44:42 PM
Since 1958, we knew Bob Griffin quite well!!
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 07, 2010, 09:48:54 PM
Neat!! lots of good stories from then tell now. I wish I could have read them!   ;) There is anther interesting organization too. It's called Gospel Ministry International the web site is www.gospelminisrty.org.  Its got a couple  aviation programs, TV and radio stations, schools, medical launch, and a few other things.
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 07, 2010, 09:50:47 PM
What is a good way to tell the helios apart form one anther? They all look alike to me.
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: mrhelio on April 08, 2010, 09:09:30 AM
Why don't you just do a photographic comparison ?, you will quickly establish the appearance of the Helio from all others!!
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 08, 2010, 01:22:56 PM
 It is to easy to tell them from the cessna!  I mean  from the different model helios like H-295 to a H-395.
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: mrhelio on April 08, 2010, 01:44:40 PM
3-blade prop for one, that would be the most noticeable difference, other that that it would the serial no.# and that doesn't mean to reflect if the aircraft has been modified

Helio H-391B 0-99.. Helio 395A is the same model with serial #'s (1000 and above)

Helio H-395 500-630

Helio 250 (2500 and up, only 40 built)

Helio H295 (1200 and up, manual flaps and trim)

Helio 295 (1400 series up to 1479)

Helio HT-295 ( 1700 series, ones built and delivered by the factory)
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 08, 2010, 09:36:53 PM
What is the difference between the 295 and the H-295 or is there any?? 
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: mrhelio on April 09, 2010, 07:21:36 AM
None!!
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 12, 2010, 02:14:11 PM
ok What is the best plane to train in for bush flying?? I was told the cessna 150 was the best starter what is your thoughts on it??
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: mrhelio on April 13, 2010, 10:42:58 AM
Super Cub, Citabria, or a C-180/185...Do it all in a tail-wheel from the start, then when you are ready for the Helio you at least have a common knowledge of how things work!!
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 13, 2010, 08:16:08 PM
ok I think that there is a 180 in the area for training. A friend gots a cessna 195, what  kind of trainer would that make? ( If he would let me use it) I don't think there is any super cubs in the area but there might be a Citabria.
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 15, 2010, 04:58:35 PM
Does any body know any thing about a helio H-250 and a h-800 powered by a radial motor?
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: mrhelio on April 16, 2010, 07:09:21 AM
The Helio 800 you speak of is now the turbine in service with Pima County...!!

The Helio H250 was introduced to be a low-cost export to South America using 80/87 octane fuel. The airplane suffered performance wise due to the direct-drive Lycoming O-540-A1A5 (250 HP) same engine as PA-24 Comanche and Aztec. It gets off short because it is fairly light-weight, but useless above 7500 feet AGL, and do not install the 3800 pound gross weight mod or 120 gallon fuel, to under-powered for that!! Cruise is 108 KTS...
Title: Re: Helio turbine courier vs stock super cub
Post by: c/stolaircraft on April 22, 2010, 07:15:23 PM
neat!!

I found a guy that will train bush pilots close to me about thirty miles away. He starts you off in a cessna 150 for the beginner training. Then to top it off with the bush flying course he put you in a cessna 180 or a husky.